Namaste! Welcome to the Zensei Podcast.

I have been blessed with many generous and loving mentors at different points in my life. Two years ago, I was in the threshold of making a very critical transition in my professional journey. 10 years ago, I had already pivoted from a career in the tech world to become a Yogapreneur, delving deep into the field of yoga therapy and inner work explorations and immersions based on Yoga Sūtrās and Mahābhārata

As I grew in this field, I reached a critical point I was looking forward for some guidance on how to go about launching and my coaching and leadership work through my newly founded company, Zensei.

That is when I came across a very interesting post on LinkedIn from a very senior and respectable mentor who is my guest today that he was pursuing a personal project of talking to 100 people on LinkedIn about anything they wish to. As I read this post, I felt a spontaneous connection to him. And that began a series of beautiful, insightful conversations about my life, work, and above all, the ideas that I were working on.

I am truly grateful and blessed to have him as a guest on my podcast today. Today, I have R Sridhar with me, a mentor, an innovation coach, and a professional writer. He's passionate about people, places, books, teachers, teaching, food, wonderment, aging, children, movies, and advertising, amongst many others. In his earlier avatar, he worked with Ogilvi and Mather

for over 25 years and later founded Ideas RS. He's currently helping people fulfill their dreams to become what they wish to be. I hope you enjoy this conversation and I look forward to your reflections and

Welcome to the Zensei podcast, and I'm very happy to have you here, Sridhar. And it's been a conversation that I've been looking forward to for a long time. And to be honest, I've been following you on LinkedIn, and I've been very curiously looking at some of the interesting posts that you've been making around.

the different conversations you've been having with so many people in the last many months. For someone who has started the journey from an advertising field and then taken a turn to yoga and coaching, I've been particularly interested in what you share around decluttering the mind and how you help people work with their ideas.

So I hope today's conversation will reveal to us and to the listeners some of the processes that makes you excited at this point. So why don't we start with the question of what makes you so alive and kicking at this point in life?

Okay.

Okay.

Yo!

So that's a great question. If somebody is alive and is not kicking, maybe is not alive. Yeah, so I want to feel that I'm alive. Any human being which is alive, reacts and responds.

Hehehehe

Mm-hmm.

right

that is on the reactive side on the active side an active person who is alive will always want to do something right so maybe it is called restlessness in some fashion and in some cases it may not be restlessness i am speaking for myself i am saying that if i am around i must be useful for people okay

The fact that I have to do something to earn money etc is behind me now. When I am 74, I have been there, done that kind of stuff. Now what is exciting for me is to meet people much younger than me. To understand where they come from, what makes them take. I mean this idea came because I am dealing with my grandchildren. And they are so different, they are so eager. They like walking, talking, blotting papers. And they ask some fantastic questions.

And there is a certain degree of innocence about them, which is so charming. Right? So, that was one thing that was happening. So, being alive for me is to be able to respond and react. I'm not a statue, right? That's one thing. The other thing is that... You constantly figure out or want to know, what is it that I can do which can help people in some fashion or the other.

Right? I mean, that must be some people at my age who go to the caves and doing meditation. So that is their call and they do it. I do my meditation, but that's there in the morning before I start the day kind of stuff. So for me, it's very exciting to meet new people, talk to them, understand their challenges, how they solve problems, how they fight, how they win, how they lose, and how they get up before the count of 10, right? Like in a boxing ring.

They gotta get up before the count of 10. So that's what makes me alive because I want to talk to young people who do this. Now, people in my age group generally tend to speak of the past. But you can't drive a car using the reverse gear all the time. If you want to move forward, you want to go first, second, third, fourth kind of thing, and you want to move forward. So I'm saying I want to move forward. I know.

Hmm.

forward there is a destination that is fixed by God. Right? When that destination arrives, things will happen on their own. I don't have to worry about it. But till I get to the destination, am I having a good time? Am I enjoying my life? Am I making a difference to other people's life? Am I being available, useful? That's what excites me.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Wonderful. I think it's so heartwarming to listen to this perspective that you're holding about life and the excitement to talk to the younger generation. And more importantly, I think the fascination that you share regarding the questions that people hold and what makes them. So I think as you were speaking, I was reminded of a quote I was.

Yeah.

coming across on Instagram yesterday. Once you know that the life is anyway going to end with certain unfulfilled expectations and desires, no matter what, how much ever you fulfill, then your focus shifts to what am I really pursuing in this process, nevertheless. So I think to that extent, I was in touch with perhaps what drives your pursuit at this point is

Hmm

Yeah.

Good.

the excitement to solve interesting problems and by listening to the younger people and figuring out what is the challenges, what are the things they are curious about. So I do want to ask you, you have had a very long stint solving interesting problems in the advertising and marketing domain for a very long time. And...

What about problem solving excites you?

Typically a problem where people say there is no solution excites me.

Mm-hmm.

So, beg your pardon.

You don't feel anxious when somebody says this is the problem with no solution.

I might get anxious if it isn't mobbing me and I feel that there is no solution for me. But when I am, if somebody else is asking, so the most important thing I have to bring to the table is my objectivity.

Correct.

see just imagine a pond that somebody is dead and he's caught in the sand inside the pond and he's asking for help you have to bring him out so i have to throw a rope and i have to firmly tie myself to some kind of stake on the ground so i can pull him out now in the process of helping him i also get into the pond then i

Hmm.

So when people come to me for help, I have to make sure 100% that I maintain my objectivity. I must be above the board. So this is the way I approach it. So if somebody comes to me with a problem, the first thing that I want to help them figure out is what is the issue that you are trying to grapple with, for which you need a solution.

and

Great.

Mm-hmm.

because when you go to a doctor, so the doctor says, so what's the problem? Then if I tell him that I have a problem here, my eyes are watering, my nose is blocked, this, that, I tell him 15 things. So then he will say, which is the one which is bothering you the most?

say I'll say two things one is digestion and the other thing is I'm not able to sleep well Right so the doctor will say okay probably it is related if I crack the digestion problem Maybe your sleep will also be better. So can we crack the digestion problem first?

Right.

So that's the role of a professional. The role of a professional is to be helpful with solutions. And not treat the other guys like an idiot.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Just because somebody is seeking help doesn't mean that his inferiority is in any way. In fact, he has the guts to ask for help. A lot of people don't even do that.

That's what excites me today.

Yeah,

sure, sure. I think what you said is really true because there is a lot of inhibition around seeking support and asking help also. So I'm also curious to know, because you did post recently on LinkedIn that you would like to talk to 100 people, you would like to have 100 conversations. How did you experience the response? Were people excited about it?

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Right.

or were people being a little tentative about whether to seek support? What was your experience of it?

See, I think I was overwhelmed by the response to start with. I didn't realize that so many people would respond because I suspect that people have gone to my profile and read my profile and come. So a lot of people could have dismissed as an old fellow.

Mmm.

But that's not what has happened. There are people in different age groups who have come. I had asked for 100. I've done some 20 so far. Each problem is different. Now, the challenge for me was not to get judgmental about the issue that they're facing.

Hmm.

So I had to approach it with empathy.

Got it. Is there something that you're observing about the younger generation and how they are going about life? Is it showing up any contrasts or learnings for you at this point as you engage in this conversation?

I don't know whether to call it learning or nothing, but one observation I see is that tremendous optimism of future is there, right? And the keenest to make it work.

Mm.

At the same time, I think there is also an obsession about results, which I think is natural for youngsters. So anxiety about results obfuscates possible solutions. It's like saying I have to write an exam. Right? I, while during the time I should be spending time studying and preparing for the exams, if I worry about will I get 70% or only 60%, then I'm wasting time.

Mmm.

Mm.

Hmm.

Is that fair? So that's what is happening with a lot of people who are facing situations. Now, what is the way in which I can respond to this is to help them break down the problems as to what are the different issues that you are grappling with. Let us say a person says that I have a misunderstanding with my boss.

Mm.

Hmm.

right? He starts by saying I have a misunderstanding with my boss. So I want to ask him, if you know that you have a misunderstanding with the boss, then you already have a good understanding of something.

So tell me what are you misunderstanding?

So he will not be able to. So I'll say, give me some evidence which says that you have a misunderstanding. So he says that every time, you know, when we are doing a review session, I get into trouble with him. So I'll say, okay, that's a good point. Why are you getting into trouble during review sessions? So my boss doesn't seem to be satisfied with the progress I make. So I'll say, what is the measurement of progress?

Mm.

monthly sales results. So then you tell me what did you promise and what did you deliver. So if you promised 100 and you are consistently delivering only 60, if I am the boss I will also be unhappy. So now you have to figure out why is it that you promised 100 and delivering only 60. Where is the balance 40 going? Should you find some issue to crack there?

or when the boss is asking you why is the difference coming, you have no answer. If you are the boss, won't you be upset with your subordinates if this happens? Now, this is the way the conversation goes. And they feel comfortable because I am not accusing them of anything.

Right.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Correct. So I think what I am picking up from the way you're sharing about this process is you help the person who is coming to you simplify their thinking process and declutter a messed up way of or a entangled way of thinking through things into simple, comprehensible elements, which can be looked at from a space of clarity. And that's what I'm sensing.

That's right.

Yeah,

yeah.

And

but one thing which also struck me in your sharing was the anxiety many people in your observation hold about the results and how it impacts their action choices in that moment. So having done a fair bunch of work in a very professional manner over many years, how have you approached this in your own life, or let's say even in the current stage of life?

When you have a certain vision, when you have a certain intent or a goal, how do you structure your process of pursuing it? Do you have a very unique or an original method that you evolved over time?

See, I don't think I have anything original or unique about the way I do things. I mean, that would be too big a claim to make. But I was lucky in a couple of things. One is my father. Okay. He was a problem solver by nature. He was an engineer. And he will come and tell us stories about what happened at the office and how he cracked the problem. Okay.

I think I'll give you one example. I don't know whether I mentioned to you before. I mean there was one meeting apparently here in his office where there was a management meeting and the boss was upset that the results were not good. And he actually let my father have it in front of everybody. He made it look like he was not worth having in the job kind of stuff. Right? My father listened to everything. At the end of it he said, Sir, I understand that you're unhappy about what I've not been able to do. But the fact that

Mmm.

you have allowed me to work in this company for the last 10 years could mean that I am also delivering some value.

So would you be kind enough to say what is it that I'm doing right and what should I do differently or better? That will help me. Immediately the boss sort of changed his tune. He said, no, you're a very valuable part of the team and so on and so forth. Now, what is the lesson for me here is that don't get phased when you're criticized.

If you get panicky, you will make a mistake. At that point, my father had every reason to get panicky because in front of the whole group of people, there was a personal attack on my father.

so this is the point so today for instance when people come in i learned that and i learned from my guru uh... i don't want to talk about because it is on spiritual and all that but then uh... conversation with my guru he gave me instructions to do certain things and then i'll say i will do it he'll say listen how will you remember what i told you so go get a pen and paper and take down the notes then he'll say okay what i told you read back and read back

Then I'll say, okay, one, two is true, but three, this is not what I told you. You've got something else there. This is what you want me to do.

Very clear. But they did it also nicely, compassionately and so on and so forth. So right now all that I am doing is that whatever I learn from them and trying to practice. Okay. I have had my days as a boss and I was an extremely tough boss. But afterwards I changed. They changed my name from R. Sridhar to R. Shredder. The people who shred things.

He'll really tear you apart kind of stuff. Then some people told me, saying that this is not on. For instance, I'll tell you something that happened. I had gone to Calcutta on a trip from the airport. I picked up a book called Dear Boss. Okay, that book, Dear Boss. And that book had a whole range of memos from employee to the boss as to what he's doing wrong and all that. So when I came back, I...

Dear Boss

called the key employers who were working with me saying, this is the book, right? Go through the book and underline all the portions you think is relevant to me, right? So this was about a core group of about seven people. And then I was going on a holiday. I said, I'll be back in 15 days. By that time you finish the book and all that, you give it to me back. The day I returned, there was this gift-wrapped book on my table.

This book was gift wrapped and kept on my table. I walked in the morning. This was gift wrapped. I opened the book and I saw started reading. And they had underlined all the portions which were wrong with me. The book was all about what is wrong with the boss. Anyway, so they underlined all the portions. And I had said that, look, after this, I will report to you as to what I got out of this. So in two days, I finished the book, then I called the team in the room.

Mmm.

And there was total silence. They saw me having the book in my hand and they didn't know what was going to happen. So I said, I went through what is written. And frankly, if I was in your position, I'll never work for a boss like this.

Hmm.

Right? And that was my honest feeling. Of course I was feeling sad, but I had to be truthful. I'll never work for a boss like this. Then people piped up and said that, you know, there is something wrong with the book. Because it's only saying wrong things about what the boss is not doing. You please understand that if we are still working with you in spite of all these problems, there must be something enormously right that you're doing.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

And that's saved my day.

Wow, that's an amazing story. I think what I am in touch with when you're sharing this is the compassion and respect that is offered along with the critique. And because even as your employees shared it with you, the way they took that step to also share that this is, the book itself is not complete. I think.

That requires a lot of compassion. And for you to also share the same with them, what you honestly felt.

Yeah, you know today when you say compassion, I'm able to relate to compassion. At that time, it wasn't compassion. I mean, I was agitated and I said, how can they be so ungrateful to me and all that? Yet, I think there was a certain degree of discretion that was there where I didn't take it out on them. Right. There, I think there is some level of dignity you had to have as the as the boss.

Mmm.

Right.

for the other people as human being. They trusted you and they're telling you what they feel. And the only way to reciprocate is to trust them again. Right? So it was a two way process. I was getting a 360 feedback where the terms 360 feedback was not then in vogue.

Hmm.

Hmm

Correct.

You know?

Yeah. So.

building on what you were sharing earlier about what makes you come alive at this point, I think you mentioned about respond and react. And this particular example it's just seems so relevant in that.

Yes.

Respond,

respond, don't react.

respondent not to react.

Yeah, respond is about thinking carefully and responding with responsibility.

Mm-hmm.

respond with compassion, heart, etc. Reacting is, you know, it's an autopilot kind of stuff. So for instance, if somebody pierces me with a pen, I say "Ouch!" that's a reaction.

Mmm.

So responding is thoughtfully done.

if somebody attacks me, if I immediately say that, look, this guy has always had it like this, he never liked me, you know, he doesn't like people with beard, that's why he's doing all this, etc., then I've lost.

Right.

The other thing is that when somebody tells you something, we have the license to say, let me think about it. I'm taking notes, let me think about it, I'll come back to you in the next one or two days. There's no reason for you to immediately answer this. I mean you always have the right to say, I want to think about it and come back.

sometimes even a doctor does it right? sometimes you go and he takes all your checkup and all that, he said let me think let me speak to some fellow doctors and come back to you in a day or two i will give you an appointment for such and such time, you come back i will tell you what is to be done there now this seems little unusual let's not rush into any treatment, in the meantime for pain i am giving you this and please take care, you don't do this

It takes two days to get some expert opinion come back. So that is professional, right? So professionals respond, don't react.

Hmm.

True.

So just to also build on this distinction between the capability to respond versus the impulse to react. You've done fair bit of work in working with creativity. I think you wrote a book on this, on ideas and creativity. You designed a game, the deck of cards. How do you find creativity linked to this capability?

that one can nurture to respond? And how do you see that play out in your conversations with people who are struggling with it?

See,

so creativity is all about newness and freshness.

Mm-hmm.

That's the simplest definition of creativity, all about newness and freshness. So when you see a new idea, it is like meeting a stranger.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

If the stranger is attractive, you will say, oh wow. But if he opens his mouth and his voice is like, you know, a squeaky kind of voice, then you'll be put off. Now why should I expect that a man's voice should sound only like a man's voice? There are some men whose voice actually sound like a woman's voice and vice versa.

Am I able to accept it that look this is the way it is for him? Should I then come to a judgement that a man with a squeaky woman's voice is ladylike in his behaviour? Can I do that? I can't.

Hmm.

A lady with a man's voice, should I assume that she has no grace? I can't, no? So this is what comes through experience and a lot of hits and misses, trials and tribulations you've been through. And then you understand that respond and not react is a good thing to do.

Yeah. Mmm.

So when it comes to living a creative life where one can start reimagining possibilities of how to respond to the emerging contexts when changes happen, when let's say jobs change or the life context change, how do you take this outside of a work or a professional space to applying in personal life, for example.

How have you experienced it

So, first thing, I never decided saying that I want a creative life. Okay, that's nothing like a creative life. I said I don't want to be bored.

Okay.

I don't want to be bored. OK.

yeah, as simple as that, right? So, if I have, if I decide I don't want to be bored, then I'll try and see that I don't repeat doing the same thing again and again. Something compulsion is that every day you have to have a bath. It's compulsory, you have to have a bath. But I can experiment with it. I can have a cold shower, I can have a hot shower.

I can use a different kind of soap, I can have a shampoo which is different, I can have a towel with fluffy nature, I can have a different towel. Sometimes I can go and get drenched in the rain and do things like that. But the thing is that there is some mandatory stuff that you have to do. How you respond and react is in your hands.

Mm.

Hmm. Yeah, so when you're saying this, I'm also reminded of as a coach, I come across many clients and professionals who do have this same intent, what you're sharing, that you know what, I'm bored doing whatever I'm doing. I want to discover if there's a more creative or a different way of doing. And oftentimes for me, I have seen that the sense of boredom also get linked

to a certain meaninglessness or wanting to create a new meaning in what they're like what you're saying you can take a hot shower you can take a warm shower you can experiment the same routine tasks also what is the relevance of meaning that plays out in this kind of a setup.

That's very deep stuff, I don't think like that. There are times when you start wondering about purpose of life and all that kind of stuff. And that has happened to me as I grew older. Till that time it didn't happen. But even today, for instance, my own introspection and discussions with myself is about what is giving me happiness. What makes me happy? Right?

Mm.

Mm.

And then over a period of time, I have figured out that my happiness is coming from inside me and not outside.

Hmm.

So I'll show you this. This mug, I filled it with hot water. Okay. Now as I'm talking, the water has become cold.

Okay.

So I'll still drink it. Some time ago what I would have done is I'll say, hey Hari give me a few minutes, so I'll go fill some fresh water in the cup.

Yeah, so right now I'm looking at things that are happening to me, which are not about according to my expectations. I'm saying fine, I will still manage. And there are times when I have to say no, I will say no. But can I say no in a manner which is nice? Can I say no without anger, you know, aggression? Is there a nice way to say no?

Mm.

Mmm.

For instance, let's say that in my childhood, there are certain things I didn't like, some kind of vegetables I may not like, right? If my mother made it, I'll make a throw tantrum. I'll say, you knew that I didn't like it, and still you made it, right? Now, when I got married, initially I was doing that, and later on I said, I can't do it. I mean, she did it in good faith, right? So, not done. Today I eat it. Don't even make a noise. So somebody, my cousin, will say, what?

We used to make such a fuss about bhindis, now you are eating it. So I said, what's the problem here? I'm eating them, right? So I'm not wasting it. So we change, but I think the ability to recognize that we have changed, right? That is very important. The second thing I think, it's just I've decided to be happier, okay? I have decided to be happy and nobody can make me unhappy. Suppose I take that resolve.

in.

Uh.

Dhrida Sankalpa (strong intention) that nobody can make me unhappy. Do what you like. Then it's up to me, right?

Uh.

So I'm curious if you were to give your personal definition of happiness at this point what would that be? How would you define happiness?

A sense of calm and peace. Where... And... And sort of whatever is here, it's okay. I mean, I'm not using big words. I have a table to sit here. Right? I can work here. It is very cold and I ask my friends and boss, it's very cold, what do I do? And they'll say, Tatu, use that. You know, change that switch setting, etc.

Hmm.

So I don't complain about being, it's being cold.

Right?

So

certain acceptance of what is

of what is without thinking that you are doing anybody a great favor.

Hmm, yeah. Great. And I think one other important thing for me from what you just shared around the idea of happiness for yourself is also how critical it is to also say no, though to say it in a nice manner. And because sometimes there is also constant priming or orientation that we go through that you should always say yes to life and

Thanks for watching!

There's a lot of inhibition around saying no. Do you want to share more about that?

Yeah,

so I have understood how to say yes to no. Which is, I think no is a choice. It's a choice that we're making. The problem with people saying no is that they say it in such a way that it is like attacking the other person, or dismissing the other person, or negating the other person. Now if

Yeah.

Hmm.

It's a question of language and tone and style. I can say no without saying no.

Suppose you know it's a buffet and the host comes and says take some of this I Can say I have tried that is it okay if I take that because I seem to like that more. What do you say? So say hell if you'd like to take that So I'm saying no into this right?

Mm-hmm.

So why do I need to make no into such a definite, 100% compulsive, dead-end kind of situation? If you actually turn no, NO can be going on, right?

Mm. Yeah.

So you can say no without any kind of drama. That's the problem. Lot of people make no into a drama.

See for instance, in many cases when you travel in long distance there is very few dead ends that you will meet, right? There will be road diversions that will be there.

Mm.

So you treat no as a temporary diversion. Only in matter of values, there is a hard no, which is a hard stop.

It does make sense and when you are speaking I was also going into my own memories of how sometimes knowing what all should I say no to also leads me to what is the right yes.

So I think what you should do is, instead of wondering about what I should say no to, be clear about what you should say yes to.

and that by itself filters out a lot of

Yeah.

options, so to speak.

So let me give an example, okay? You find both Raghu and I visiting you.

There is only one chair available. Who would you offer it to?

Who would I offer the chair?

Tough question. I would

I know that's why I'm asking that.

I think I would give the option to either of you to use whoever feels tired.

That's not acceptable. You have to take a call. There is one chair you have to offer it to. You can't say either of you sit.

I will find another chair.

There's no option. There's only one chair. One chair, Raghu and I are there, both bearded fellows. Right? Who will you offer the chair to?

and.

I think my first instinct will be to offer it to Raghu Yes.

Right? Then you might turn around and say, Raghu, please sit, I'll find another chair for Sridhar. That's a different issue. Then you don't find a chair, you find a Moda and say, Sridhar, do you mind? And say, fine, no problem, yeah. But you can't escape it, right? But if you say no in a manner which is acceptable with great amount of grace and, you know, politeness, etc., people will understand.

Correct.

Right.

Mmm.

Mmm.

So

you're not saying no to me, you're saying Raghu you sit here, I'll find another chair for Sridhar he will also find, I will also find. So don't treat no as a dead end, that's the problem.

It's very powerful what you just thought experiment because immediately when confronted with the Necessity and the inevitability to say no I think it also surfaces a lot of fears around how will this be received? What will be the judgment or what could be the feelings? I'm creating as a result of this

For me, the learning from this particular conversation is also about, it's a practice. The more I practice, it's like a skill and a muscle that develops on how to refine and develop that capability to affirm and still build on what's next.

Thanks for watching.

Yeah, but I think there are some core values which are driving it from inside.

Okay.

I think hospitality is a value. You must look after every guest.

So the fact that you're looking after one guest doesn't mean that you're not looking after the other guest. You're not driving him away. While you're offering Raghu a seat, you'll just say, give me a few minutes, I'll find another seat for you.

Hmm, right.

Now, Raghu being who he is and me being who I am, we will help you probably. Or both of us can be mischievous sometimes and say let's figure it out what this fellow does.

Suppose both of us were walking in and then I tell Raghu, let's see what Hari does today. Soon we'll be playing games.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah.

Isn't it?

No, that's a... No, I feel that is a very valuable perspective too because it is something I do feel personally and as well as also with people whom I come across in the coaching space, a lot of us struggle with. Especially I think, I don't know if it gets better with age but at least in the younger days, it does a lot of struggle because it also sometimes creates that sense that if I say no, am I missing out?

I'm not saying of this kind of a scenario what to describe, but generally, let's say opportunities. If I say no to something, it comes back to, I think, also the perspective of holding a sense of scarcity inside where there's a compulsive need to say yes to everything versus knowing that, oh, this is my most important aspect of work or this is my most critical.

investment I need to make of my time and energy and choosing to say yes only to that at a point. I think that's a very tricky but important skill to master at an early age I feel.

Yeah, true. So I think contemplation is a very important thing. There are times when we're alone, we need to think about, let's say, I'm not saying that I'm doing it every day, but then I would sometimes think about what I did yesterday and why. And then why did I do it this way? Why did I not do it another way? Right, there are provocations in life that happens.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Hmm.

and they were delivered and say or the way responded to my grandson yesterday was that the best uh... did i feel happy about it did he feel happy about that if i did they had dissonance in that then i will go and figure out how he felt about it

Mm.

Hmm.

Suppose he says, Tattu, I didn't feel anything, it is okay. Then I'll come back, maybe then I am overdoing stuff. But I think being sensitive, being respectful of yourself and others, we don't have to, in the name of showing respect, we don't have to sort of beat ourselves. That's not necessary.

and

Right,

right. So just to build on some of these threads that we are speaking about around responding versus reacting, the happiness and how it's also innately connected to a realization that it is anchored within me, even as I go about making choices and also getting that ability or the skill to say yes.

than and practicing the no.

When you look back at the journey you have had so far, what is it that you find as something that has really added a sense of fulfillment for your own actions and choices?

See, the way in which I made choices, the criteria employed for making choices over a period of time has changed consistently. So during career times, choice was about better job, better designation, more money, more facilities, respect in society and all that kind of stuff. At the same time, there were certain core values in the sense of saying,

You will never sort of compromise on things like truth, respect, any of those. You will not compromise on that, not at the cost of those. So there are certain core values you held, and then you played around with that kind of stuff. And I had my ambition. In fact, one of my bosses wrote a line saying, ambition should pay tribute to thought, maturity, and fellow feeling.

Hmm.

Wow.

So that was sunk in. So I was very ambitious, there is no question. But my ambition was not about, you know, I must come first and then he should come third.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So I like the idea of getting recognition, I like the idea of getting a promotion. I like the idea that when I make a recommendation, the client accepts it. For instance, there was one instance in my life, I had made a recommendation to a client, and that client was very wishy-washy about this. Next week my boss and I went with him. And then my boss, I told my boss this is what happened in the last meeting, I told him this and he was very vague about it. So this time my boss made the recommendation.

And he said, fantastic, that's why I look forward to our visits. I mean, every time you bring a fresh perspective and all that. I was boiling, yeah. I said, what rubbish, ya! Last week I told him this, and now he's saying this. So when I came back, my boss, I was very upset. My boss said, what happened? So I said, this is what happened. He said, the thing is that at some point, he is putting in a lot more respect and credibility for what I'm saying. You have still to earn that.

Mmm.

status in his mind. You have to earn it. So by consistently doing things which are right for him, he will note you're on his side.

That's the main thing. So please figure out a way of how you can show to other people that you're on their side.

Right.

So in my case our relationship goes back some 20-25 years and he knows me, I know him. You are very new to him. You are a kid. So even if a kid comes and tells you, gives you the right prescription, you would want to know whether the doctor prescribed or his compounder prescribed it.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Correct.

So that's the kind of stuff. So life has changed for me. So I'm now saying that, look, happiness and all that, it's just a function of how I look at it. Someday there is no salt in the sambar, am I going to be agitated? No. I will, if the salt is available, I'll just go pick up, put some salt and eat it. If there is no salt, I'll still eat it. I will not waste the food. My challenge is, is it changing or affecting my state of happiness that day?

Mmm.

Hmm.

Hmm. Beautiful. I think personally for me also, I've been tinkering with this idea of how exactly to approach happiness. And I have seen for myself that more and more the focus is shifting to what is the process of living life than getting something at some point and things like that. Well, that is important. But as you said, the focus is shifting more into what is the quality of my action? Am I reacting?

Yeah.

Am I responding in that process? And what is the compassion and respect I can bring into the interfaces as I go along in life?

See, I'll put it very

simply, what I have realized now is I'm grappling with equanimity and not happiness.

So irrespective of what happens, am I able to keep my equanimity?

Hmm.

Hmm.

It's not about happiness or unhappiness.

here, I filled this mug full of hot water so that during the conversation I can sip it. Now I sip it, okay?

Mm.

The water is not hot anymore.

Mmm.

what are the options I have? I will say okay i Hari just wait... Let me go there and fill some hot water and then to come back or I say Okay...Theek hain, I'll drink it. It has not become cold or like a cold drink so it's all right i just want to moisten my throat that's right so it's not about happiness and happiness it's about acceptance

Mm.

Hmm.

Acceptance of what is

equanimity. When it sounds like too much of a funda stuff, I have not got there. On a scale of one to hundred have I got there, I think I got around 30 or 40 now. But what is my measure? The number of times I complain about anything has gone down.

Hmm.

Gone down, yeah.

I don't crib.

Hmm.

Beautiful. So I have another slightly off topic question. One of the question I've been asking many people these days is how do they relate to their intuition when they make choices? So oftentimes many people, I mean, this also something I started getting in touch with more of my tarot readings and also

Okay.

seeing very rational, otherwise logical minded people trying to make sense of the gut feeling, so to speak, or the intuitive feeling, which sometimes out of the blue solves many of their otherwise stuck problems. So how do you relate to this entire idea of intuition and have you worked with it for yourself?

See,

I have used intuition a lot, okay, without knowing that I was using intuition.

Mm-hmm.

I see.

The way I see it is that I am so used to looking at everything as black and white. Either black or white, there is nothing in between. But life is full of grey areas. Intuition is somewhat like this.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

I'll give an example. Let's say it's raining like mad and you have to step out. Okay? Now as you step out of the door, the road is filled with water.

Intuition says that, look, you step out, you don't know what will be there in the water.

and then maybe because of the heavy rain there is a pothole which has come. So should I step or not step?

right so I will say intuition says that at best I'll get wet but it's not major thing it's not a problem I still have an umbrella I will walk so sometimes I you actually step then there is a pothole you fall so do you blame the intuition you don't blame the intuition I'll say okay I fell I fell if you get a fracture too bad but

At that time you wanted to step out for something important not because you wanted to go dance in the rain and sing. So intuition is sometimes I find intuition is a very good thing for me where it tells me, gives me a warning signal or an encouraging signal or even says that look it's worth taking a risk, go for it.

A leap of faith.

I

find, I think a leap of faith, but intuition for me is a very good thing and has been my companion for several years now, I respect it.

But what is good about my intuition, the way in which I have... Intuition to me is a definite entity in my mind. It is also very tolerant. Sometimes I don't follow my intuition and then intuition doesn't say, listen, you didn't listen to me yesterday so I don't want to talk to you. It doesn't say anything like that. It's still with me.

Correct. Still

there as a resource. Yeah. No, that is very interesting and quite validating to hear coming from you because oftentimes I have experienced many people might not be aware they're applying their intuition. But even otherwise, even when they're aware, there's, there is some kind of a...

inhibition to acknowledge that, you know what, it was not a very rational thing. I just went with my intuition. Perhaps in the larger context, it's not as well regarded or appreciated. And that is impacting it.

See, the reason is that, see, all of us take decisions on the basis of certain things, okay. Suppose I buy this pen, okay. You see, it's a black pen. I buy this for writing things. That's the primary purpose. Then I hold it, how do I feel about it? Third thing is, what would Hari think of this pen?

Mm.

Mmm.

The problem is that if all my decisions are based on what will Hari think, what will the world think etc. then I am a prisoner of that kind of thought.

So there's a functional aspect, how do I feel about it, what the world thinks about it. These are the three ways in which we make decisions, right? Okay, so sometimes what happens is we pay too much of attention to what will other people say, what will other people think.

Mm. Yeah.

Hmm.

So intuition with experience will say that, you know, I can't get away with it. Or intuition will say, if there is an opposition, you can manage it.

Hmm.

Mmm.

So experience actually helps you hone your intuition. Provided you read the signals. There are people who are experienced but don't think and they constantly make mistakes. Doing all the wrong things, irritating people, upsetting people. That's because they don't hone it. I think intuition is a very powerful thing. It has to be honed like you hone a knife. Sharpen the knife.

Mmm.

Yeah.

You must practice. It's like talking to yourself sometimes.

Yeah, I think this idea of a practice is something that has been recurring in this conversation also, whether it is about saying no or refining and learning how to apply the wisdom from the intuitive part of ourselves. And for me, it also coming from our yoga space, the entire idea of practice, we call it abhyāsa.

you need a abhyāsa correct.

So one of the central threads I have been in touch with as I listened to you through this conversation is whether it is around learning to respond versus react or the process of discovering that what you call as happiness or equanimity and how is it centered in me and not others. And the way you process your life experience

by virtue of the progressively declining amount of complaints, for example, and the observations you are making of the conversations that you've been having with the different people across age groups. I think for me, what is valuable is that keen sense of observing life as it happens, constantly learning what the experience is bringing to me and integrating it.

into more of who I am so that I am not stuck in a certain mould that is rigid but I am constantly evolving one step at a time with time passing by.

You know, you gave me a very interesting explanation for what I am doing. In my view, I am just being selfish. Okay? I am just being selfish in protecting my happiness. Right? And in the process of doing so, I am just saying my happiness is a function of how I think, act and behave.

Mm-hmm.

Okay?

Okay?

Mm.

how

other people think and act and behave is not going to affect my happiness. I like my happiness. I want to retain my happiness.

Hmm.

Hmm

Right? So, earlier on, I used to decide my happiness comes from the fact that I don't say no to anybody. Right? But today I say no. I am not saying no because that's my choice, not because I want to say no to them.

Mmm.

Just as we were going to start, my wife came and said, we are going out, would you want to come? I said, no, I'm doing this.

Okay.

Okay? That's a choice I made. Now, I don't think she was upset, but the point is they knew that I have a meeting, and then they were planning to go and they wanted to make sure that just in case I wanted to go, I can go. So they gave me the option and I didn't take the option. So she said, sir, we are going. I said, you go, I will manage. So it's as simple as that. But then the thing is, I had already said that I have a meeting in the morning, and she saw me wearing the shirt.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

All that, right? She knew I was going to win. Yet she comes and says, we are going, are you coming? So I can make a big issue saying, you knew I have a meeting, you're still coming and asking me. That's not fair. All that kind of stuff. You just take it on face value and get on with it. I said, no, she accepted it, she has gone.

I think the problem is we actually attach so many new angles to many things that happen. A very simple thing, water is not hot. So what I do, I just heat it up.

Hmm.

Or I'll say, okay, this temperature is fine, I'm going to drink it.

Hmm.

So it's fine. So I'm saying being able to take this perspective is the thing that's very important for us. I mean, at this stage in life, that's what is important for me.

No, no, so I'm just fascinated how even this one statement that I shared you made it so simple and succinct in such a relatable manner. And I think that is something I do aspire to hone and practice for myself, how to simplify my own thinking, choice-making, articulation And I think you've been a great inspiration in

just watching how you respond to these questions and how you are making meanings and processing and articulating what life and life happens to you. And so it's been wonderful to have this exchange with you. And I do hope that those who are listening to this podcast found this equally insightful, interesting and valuable. Any closing thoughts or words from you?

Closing thoughts is that I don't want anybody to take me seriously. Right? I am only sharing what has happened to me and what works for me. I will invite people to try their own stuff, figure out their own methods, do their own experiments and continue to do what makes them happy. The only request I would have is that

At some point when we are putting so much of emphasis on our happiness at the cost of other people's happiness, sooner or later we will actually sort of derail.

So we live in an interdependent world. Unless I know I go to a monastery in Himalayas and I'm living alone, even there I have to live in consonance with nature. So nobody's strictly alone that way. So we need to figure out interdependency and its effect on happiness for us. So if you manage your mind, everything around us is manageable.

Our disappointments come only because of expectations which are not reasonable. I mean, that's the only thought. I'm sounding... Even as I'm saying it, it is sounding so preachy. That's not the point. I'm just saying, listen, and today I'm on this happiness trip. And I'm very saying that, look, I don't want anything to disturb my happiness.

so i have understood what are the source of disappointments which will lead me to my unhappiness so i have figured out my menu of disappointments and said which are the ones i ignore so it is like go to a restaurant there are certain times, certain things on the menu which you don't like, you don't have to have it right so it's like that, so i have my menu of happiness, i have my menu of unhappiness or disappointments, i will make sure that i don't look at the disappointment menu

Yes.

If it happens, I will take it in my stride. Don't make a big thing about it.

Yeah, I do experience you as kind of figured out what is your happiness recipe and you're inviting us to figure out what is our own unique happiness recipe and choose from that buffet.

Yeah.

So thank you so much. I really enjoyed having you for this podcast and look forward to more conversations in the future.

Thank you. Thank you.